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That history is worth studying

(PRO)
0 points
(CON)
WINNER!
5 points
TophatdocTophatdoc (PRO)

I would like to thank my opponent for hosting this debate. I as Pro will be arguing "that history is worth studying." Therefore I have the burden of proof alone.  I will offer my opinions during the first round to open the debate due to the character limit. I will offer facts and other theories outside of my own conjecture in the rest of the rounds to back the four points.


1. The importance of information: History is primarily important because it tells human beings what has happened previously. I am not referring to strictly political history or social history but I am referring to history in the general sense of the term. This inevitably include our personal history as well.

History: "a continuous, systematic narrative of past events as relating to a particular people, country, period, person, etc., usually written as a chronological account"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/history

In order to assess a situation properly it is best to accumulate as much information as possible in order to understand as much as possible. History itself is nothing short of lifeless information which may be true or false or written by a devout reclusive annalist or conjured up by a populist charlatan flim-flam artist. A knowledge of history is needed to assert and refute points that may be true or outright fictitious in origin. For example, an effeminate whiner in a first world country may say "the world has always been a peaceful place." Yet a hard faced gobsh in a third world country may need only point to the 20th century to show how destructive mankind is. Without the knowledge of history neither of the two have an authoritative answer based on facts.

2. Learning:  History allows us to learn about the past, the good , the bad, and the ugly.   That is why now we can lean about mistakes and correct them(IE. global warming). We can learn from history to build character or leadership skills by the imitation or celebration of irregular individuals such as  Julius Caesar, Dr. Sun Yat Sen, Ho Chi Minh, and etc. We can learn about the harsh experiences of the Holocaust, African Slave Trade, or the Spanish Inquisition. History can be very excruciating at times. If this is not learned we may forget the original fancy for the United Nations or the European Union. But history is not all violent as I alluded to as in the last few sentences.  The study of history is needed to understand and celebrate traditions and customs. For example, in the United States we celebrate the American Constitution with negative rights that can be pocketed and carried with ease. A celebration of America's only intellectual tradition, liberalism.Many things can be learned from history that can be put into practice for whatever purpose.

3. Expansion of one's actions:  The more one knows, the more one can act. Thus the more information one can collect, the better chance of an efficient response. To not study history limits that capacity to respond efficiently, that limits the quality of results. The more information, the better. History can only bring us useless information or beneficial information but it can not physically harm us.

4. The human experience and science: My observation of the human experience is that the knowledge human beings have acquired over their short existence is not accumulative. Instead, from my observations I have noticed the knowledge that human beings possess is based on their experiences rather than an innate intangible library hidden in the cerebrum.  This leads knowledge that is relevant and limited to one's experience.  We will create problems and solve problems according to the experiences we encounter. We will act according to the limited knowledge we possess. Our actions are then studied by scientists in STEM fields or liberal arts fields. Scientists require a knowledge of history in order to test theories and to arrive at consistencies. Those consistencies may lead to facts that we may all...


Return To Top | Posted:
2014-06-25 04:19:09
| Speak Round
adminadmin (CON)
I thank my opponent for opening his case.

In this debate, both sides agree that history is worth knowing, much like it's worth knowing how to ride a bicycle. This debate is about whether it's worth studying the subject of history. The word studying  comes from the Latin studium which roughly translates to "devotion". When you labor for hours over books and such to pursue your interest in history, that's studying. When you merely can recall the odd fact and otherwise just look it all up on Wikipedia, that's knowing history. While studying is one way of becoming knowledgeable, you could also know a lot of history without ever having seriously formally studied it.

There may be a case today for discovering history, such as in the work of archaeology. But in this information age, there is no longer any need to study any body of facts at all. We can simply look up known facts on the internet, as and when required, without any need for studying them.

More study of useful stuff
Because the study of history no longer contributes significantly to our understanding of history, since all we ever need to learn about it is right here at our fingertips, we can elect not to give up its opportunity cost - study into fields that are actually going to be important, like new treatments for cancer, and subjects that require more abstract thinking than just learning about what happened once, like philosophy. With more students going into such fields, humanity can specialize in fields it is better suited to and achieve economies of scale.

Importance of information
Just because something is important does not necessarily mean it is worth studying. My teddy bear may be very important to me, but I wouldn't expect much from any given university if I wrote a paper on him. I don't need to write a paper to see that he is a very special and important bear to me. In the same way I don't study past family reunions. They may be worth remembering but not worth studying. It's worth having the odd movie about the 300 Spartans, and that may communicate the weight of that information as well as establishing a point of reference. But to actually study that is completely un-necessary to appreciate that.

The basic premise of my case is, if we need to know history, we can just look it up. Like we look up our bank statements and photo albums regularly.

We might forget
Not anymore. The internet has forgotten (almost) nothing in the time it has existed. There is almost literally no chance of forgetting history now, for better or worse.

Expansion of actions
Not studying history does limit one's ability to be able to use history in decision making processes, though it does not generally expand the possible choices. This is counter-balanced, however, by learning that can be achieved in other areas that might also benefit the decision making process. Engineering, for example, forces you to think about all the different things that could possibly go wrong, not just the few things that have gone wrong in the past. Economics teaches you models and strategies for dealing with choices based on imperfect information. And so on.

Human experience
I think my opponent's argument got cut off here. I'll let him finish it before responding.

The resolution is negated.

Return To Top | Posted:
2014-06-27 02:37:48
| Speak Round
Cross-Examination
admin: If something has worked in the past, would you say that it is likely to keep working forever?
Tophatdoc: The conditions in the past may not exist now in order for something to work. For example, in the Middle East several millenia ago, it was common to outcast or exile lepors and other sufferers due to their disease. In today's time such diseases can be cur
Tophatdoc: cured*
Tophatdoc: You say that the Internet can't forget but is the Internet not a inanimate object?
admin: Yes it is inanimate, though it's more abstract than an object. Memory does not require sentience.
admin: Would you further agree that such historical knowledge that has no possible modern practical purpose or relevance, such as a now-needless rule in the ancient middle east, is not worth studying?
Tophatdoc: I don't believe the study of the practice of exiling the ill is knowledge that needs to be studied. I would however state that knowledge of the existence of such a practice is necessary. The knowledge is necessary to prevent it from being advocated again.
Tophatdoc: If the Internet is an abstract as my opponent claims, how can the Internet study history nevertheless forget history?
admin: The internet does not study history, but it has knowledge of history. This knowledge is encoded into it like a book, yet can be easily referenced by almost anybody, almost anywhere.
admin: Would you agree that the vast majority of all historical facts are now not worth studying, considering that most of our experience is pretty mundane anyway and quickly becomes irrelevant?

Return To Top | Speak Round
TophatdocTophatdoc (PRO)

I will finish the last three lines of my first round argument which were cut off.

The Human Experience and Science(Cont.)

Those consistencies may lead to facts that we may all benefit from. For example, if we are to study whether human beings are violent creatures or not, we must understand human history. This would require a study of a variety of societies, those that are insignificant and boring as the Kingdom of Axum to more important societies such as the Roman Empire. In essence, there can be more books like Stephen Pinker's  The Better Angels of Our Nature where violence is studied. But more scientific studies can be conducted with far less rhetoric and agendas and more decisive conclusive evidence.

RE:More study of useful stuff

A study of history is required in order to understand history. How can you understand that of which you have not studied? This is why all too often many historians find themselves making linguistic errors and misappropriating terms because they fail to understand what the terms mean within their proper context. For example, the word "popular" in the 18th century was a pejorative that was synonymous with the word "vulgar."  Versus in modern day society, the word "popular" may be considered "complimentary" or "praising". I disagree with my opponent' s premise that the state should dictate what fields should be studied(if that is what he is suggesting) or not studied by students. If the state wishes to do their own research, so be it.

 RE:Importance of information

I will simply use a fictional quote to display why my opponent's argument here is incorrect. In the words of an Anime character, Soszuke Aizen, "Admiration is the emotion furthest from understanding[1]." My opponent is suggesting that the study of history is a desire for nostalgia, hence his usage of terms. "worth remembering." However, such characters who look at history in such a lens have no interest in studying history. Their interest is for celebrating history rather than understanding it.


The 300 movie had little understanding of how Spartan society functioned.  The movie was purely a romance of factual events rather than any in-depth look at history for entertainment value only. If the 300 movie was actually interested in explaining historical events, the Spartan society would not be romanticized in any domesticated society that encourages reason rather than will.


My opponent further illustrates the point of how history has been reduced to gimmicks by entertainers. History has also been reduced in value by people with political agendas who want to spin history to their benefit selecting tidbits that suit their taste. American Richard Weaver discusses this in his book, Ideas have Consequences, "the man of culture finds the whole past relevant; the bourgeois and the barbarian find relevant only what has some pressing connection with their appetite[2]."  To study history for nostalgia or political agendas is not appropriate to understand history but to distort it.

[1]http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/175516-admiration-is-the-emotion-furthest-from-understanding-sosuke-aizen

[2]The Ideas have Consequences by Richard Weaver

RE: We might forget

The Internet is abstract and is dependent upon Internet users to put in information. It should not be trusted as 100% trustworthy. My opponent or I, if we wished we can input information into the Internet to be disruptive and humorous or even worse, malevolent. For example, I remember when a student gave a presentation in high school stating that Gaius Julius Caesar had been the emperor of the Mayan empire and defeated the Spanish in the 17th century. This is disinformation and deception. The Internet's information should be questioned more thoroughly than any book written(since anyone who has the capability can use it) that suffers criticism.

RE:Expansion of actions

My opponent just says other fields should be studied. There are other fields being studied(at least here in the USA). I don't see the...


Return To Top | Posted:
2014-06-30 23:13:38
| Speak Round
adminadmin (CON)
I thank my opponent for continuing the debate.

The Human Experience
Gaining insight from history does not require study. If you wanted to know whether humanity is violent or not, it would be foolish to look to historical literature's description of battles. A wise scientist would instead use a simple statistical model to determine how common wars are given a list of dates on which a war started, which might be sampled from any source without understanding anything about the wars themselves. One might as well use the list on Wikipedia of the most deadly wars in history for the purpose.

We might forget
The internet is merely another form of recording history that happens to be very well suited to abstraction. Just as the internet can contain false information, so too can previous methods of communicating history contain either falsified information or even falsified evidence. Historians have indeed proven a particularly unreliable and biased source of history. This is why it's so common for historians to praise their own nation and criticize all others, even until modern times. What my opponent has identified is not a problem with the internet but with all historical study. "Anyone who has the capability can do it" applies just as much to writing on paper as to writing online.

Pro laments that history has been "reduced" to little snippets designed to suit agendas, but history has always been this way. The fall of the Roman Republic, which we both share an interest in, offers a great demonstration of this principle in Octavian (who stressed only that he was heir to Julius Caesar, who was popular) and Cicero (who stressed the older, unhappy memory of kings in Rome). In this way both sides of the conflict used different parts of history to build their case, and certainly using just fairytale versions of what really went on. It's the same story with conflict today.

Expansion of actions
Every action has an opportunity cost. The cost of studying history is less resources - particularly the time of researchers - invested into other areas of study. It is NOT just sitting around and doing nothing at all. Compared to other study, history doesn't particularly expand one's actions and certainly isn't worth studying.

Importance of information
My point is that celebrating (or shunning) history is the only point of history. All of my opponent's case is built upon the premise that there is some value to understanding history, but he has not demonstrated what that value is. This is the point of 300 - the technical details of how Spartan society functioned are completely irrelevant to our society today. While entertaining, the film tells us pretty much everything we need to know about that aspect of history. Explaining historical events does not imply making an exact replication of history, which would be impossible to build context for in a film (or any other media) anyway.

More study of useful stuff
I'm not saying we should dictate study, I'm just saying history isn't worth it. People are naturally disinclined to do things that have no payoff. This is precisely why I've been arguing that there is no need to understand history. We should instead be understanding stuff like how to stop diseases, which will actually help us into the future.

Here's my overall point: anything more than a superficial knowledge of history is nothing more than a waste of time; and idle intellectual fascination that doesn't actually resolve itself. It won't help you in your life, and it won't satisfy you. The history that can be known is infinite (and boring) but your understanding is destined to be nothing more than finite. It doesn't need to be that way - we can use what history we need, and we need nothing more. Modern communication technology makes that possible. With that in mind, we might as well Carpe Diem.

History is there to be discovered and known, not studied. The resolution is negated.

Return To Top | Posted:
2014-07-02 22:10:50
| Speak Round
Cross-Examination
admin: I'll repeat my question from the last CX.
admin: Would you agree that the vast majority of all historical facts are now not worth studying, considering that most of our experience is pretty mundane anyway and quickly becomes irrelevant?
Tophatdoc: I would disagree profusely. We must study and understand the majority of historical facts in order to understand what is consistent.
Tophatdoc: This is why studying the Roman empire or the British is a serious mistake, they are anomalies in history. They are not representative of majority of societies in any form to understand consistencies.
Tophatdoc: British empire*
Tophatdoc: Would you say that the people who study history and the people who use history are the same people?
admin: No. Right now I'm using my historical experience of typing without ever having studied typing.
admin: Do you have any empirical evidence to support the statement "We must study and understand the majority of historical facts in order to understand what is consistent"?
Tophatdoc: There are mutliple theories that urge the study of facts in order to arrive at consistencies which thereby can be used as facts to understand human progress.
Tophatdoc: An example would be Peter Turchin's Cliodynamics which utilizes mathmatics as well as history to define cyclical periods. I have more theories to offer as well if you wish.
Tophatdoc: mathematics*
Tophatdoc: You say that you have "historical experience of typing," would you call yourself an expert at typing?

Return To Top | Speak Round
adminadmin (CON)
A shame about the forfeit. Oh well, there's always next round.

I'll answer a few brief CX points and ignore the primary arguments of the debate, to keep things interesting. I might be an expert at typing, and I wouldn't have to know that Lillian Sholes was the first female typist to be an expert. I would instead concentrate on the typing, not the history. In this case I'm pretty average at typing, but I'd consider myself a good programmer. That's because I understand how to write code. Not because I know much about the history of programming.

I'm going to press this consistency point. The logical corollary of "We must study and understand the majority of historical facts in order to understand what is consistent" is that "anything not based on the majority of historical facts is inconsistent". Other than my opponent's failure to prove definitively that his claim was itself based on the majority of historical facts, it ignores that all conclusions are only reached based on our present understanding of history, not our historical understanding. The difference is significant, because our perception of historical facts is not necessarily accurate. Furthermore, our present understanding leads us to many more, quite consistent beliefs. "I think therefore I am" would be a classic example of a consistent statement that is in no way based on historical facts. And that's not to mention my opponent's strange assumption that normalcy in history implies a majority of evidence.

I look forward to continuing in the next round.

Return To Top | Posted:
2014-07-07 10:05:27
| Speak Round
Cross-Examination
admin: Can you justify why the specific workings of society in ancient Sparta are relevant to us today?
Tophatdoc: I could not make that argument from a practical standpoint that it would be relevant to "us." I think that would be relative to each individual. From my point of view, there would be nothing significant to be salvaged outside of the Agoge and the philosop
Tophatdoc: Since my opponent says he may be an expert at typing, could he clarify why typing was developed and what was it imitating?
admin: I have no idea why it was developed and what it imitated. I don't care and I don't need to know in order to be a good enough typist for my purposes, nor do I see how knowing that would make me a better typist.
admin: If most of all history is not relevant to most of the people most of the time, is there any point to studying it?
Tophatdoc: From a scientific point of view, studying history is very useful in understanding humanity's points of stagnation, progression, and regression.
Tophatdoc: A detailed study of history can not look at anomalies which are useful for romanticism.
Tophatdoc: Would you be capable of stating with authority that typing will exist five centuries from now?
admin: No, but more to the point I don't accept your premise that history is generally predictive. Unprecedented things happen around the world, every day.
admin: Would it be a fair comment to say that your "scientific" view of history is very broad in its assessment of historical data, and as such, does not need to concern itself with finer historical details?
Tophatdoc: I would not say that. Think of someone that wants to test a theory that religion encourages violence. It would be malicious of that researcher to purposefully search for violent events that include religion.
Tophatdoc: That researcher must also take into account of the times where religion was present and there was no violence.
Tophatdoc: But the period without violence would be at the very least insignificant to majority of people except this researcher.
Tophatdoc: If history is not predictive as you claim(I never claimed predictability), would it not be possible for typing to be rendered useless in the future?
admin: It would be possible. I don't see your point because the possibility of typing becoming obsolete is not determined by history.
admin: In your example, isn't the researcher making a very BROAD assessment of all times in history, in not choosing to select only times with religious violence? And isn't it NOT CONCERNED WITH FINER DETAILS like which religion was most dominant, or what kind o
admin: ... what kind of flooring the churches used?
Tophatdoc: I don't see how the flooring of churches would have anything to do with the researcher's study. A floor is is not capable of committing violence.
Tophatdoc: However, the most dominant religion in a certain period of time may be one of the top advocates of violence.
Tophatdoc: Is the possibility of typing not preserved by history with a written tradition? Such as how old languages, philosophies, and other concepts are still preserved by history.
admin: If you check my case you'll see that my case allows for the preservation of history without the study of history. This debate is about study of history, not preservation.
admin: If you accept that the researcher should only look to broader, yet relevant evidence, without excluding important evidence, why is years of tedious study better suited to achieving that than merely referencing a historical database?

Return To Top | Speak Round
TophatdocTophatdoc (PRO)
My opponent during the last round claimed  that I have a "strange assumption that normalcy in history implies a majority of evidence." This is a reverse assumption on the part of my opponent using inductive reasoning rather than deductive reasoning. We can not arrive at nor define normalcy without having majority of the evidence available.Without sufficient evidence, normalcy can not be defined.  That is why I stated emphatically earlier in this debate, it is not effective to study the British Empire,or the Romans,or other similar anomalies  to understand human history because they are not representative of it. They are merely anomalies, so they can not define what is normal but rather what is not. Normalcy must be defined but what is the most "common" and consistent rather than the most rare,or exceptional,or unique.Otherwise, there is no consistency to define what is "normal." 

"Other than my opponent's failure to prove definitively that his claim was itself based on the majority of historical facts"

My claim does not have to be based on historical facts because it relates to defining what is consistent and what is not. Nothing of which I said relates to the types of historical facts themselves but rather to the consistency amongst the facts that can be used for comparative research. 

"If you check my case you'll see that my case allows for the preservation of history without the study of history. This debate is about study of history, not preservation."

My opponent claims that we can preserve history without the study of history. How can we preserve what we don't know? If something has been preserved that suggests it has been studied at some point. We can not read about Athenian democracy in today's time if it had not been studied. People in the future will not be able to read about the rise of democracies in the 19th century if it was studied.

It seems my opponent relates to and argues against a liberal arts understanding of history.  I am referring to a more scientific understanding of history. For undergraduates, I am referring to people that have a BS in history rather than a BA in history. This means a stronger emphasis on linguistics, mathematics, statistics, and more comparative research. This also means less romanticism and propaganda.  Some will ask how would this be useful? 

It is useful in order to establish a historical understanding of human beings within the world, within nations, and within states. The study of history is necessary to confirm or reject our understandings of human history. The study of history may determine if human beings behave in a cyclical manner as suggested by the Islamic theorist Ibn Khaldun with his ideas about the inevitable rise and fall of societies. Or perhaps a more modern and scientific version of a cyclical theory would be Peter Turchin's Cliodynamics which utilizes historical data and mathematics to determine cycles in human history. Maybe a cyclical understanding of human history is wrong and it is dialectic theory that has a better understanding of human history as Hegel suggests. We can not properly understand history without the study of it. If Cliodynamics as understood by Peter Turchin is correct, we can predict the future utilizing mathematics and history. But that can only be confirmed with an understanding and study of history thoroughly.

I am not urging the celebration of history as my opponent has suggested but the understanding of it. To properly understand history, there needs to be data, data must be based off of historical facts, which must include historical facts significant and insignificant which then be utilized in an effective manner. Let the world take a scientific view of history rather than one that relates to arts. A scientific approach seeks to understand the significant and the insignificant. The artistic approach my opponent refers to is for entertainment and celebration of alleged great events and great...
Return To Top | Posted:
2014-07-11 03:50:02
| Speak Round
adminadmin (CON)
My opponent's entire case rests on this unproven assumption: that we can only know things we have studied.

This assumption was famously critiqued by the philosopher Alan Watts, who pointed out that everybody knows how to breathe without having first studied breathing. At no point in this debate has the affirmative even attempted to show any reason why study is the only way to acquire, retain and use knowledge. I've said that study may be one way to do these things, but it is very inefficient, requiring much time and effort. When something can be known without study, we might as well spare ourselves the trouble.

Such is the case with history. All of pro's arguments are merely that history is worth knowing - he has not addressed the resolution, which is why history is worth studying. I pointed out the distinction between the two in round one, and my opponent has not engaged with that. As I proposed, we ought to know history by recording it as it happens, and retrieving that data when required. 

The fact is we are now in a position where, completely without the study of history, every one of the things my opponent mentioned is possible. He has not shown why the study of history is necessary or desirable in these circumstances, effectively skirting the key issue of the debate. I asked pro in the CX: If you accept that the researcher should only look to broader, yet relevant evidence, without excluding important evidence, why is years of tedious study better suited to achieving that than merely referencing a historical database? He couldn't give an answer to this simple question, even in his round. If we really need only a scientific perspective on history as pro claims, then we really don't need anything but a recording of the data for analysis should we want to test a theory from some other discipline (my opponent has suggested sociology, but there are countless other examples). There is no reason why the medium of that recording should be our brains' memories.

Further to this I also critiqued the usefulness of history, especially when memorized and studied with a human mind and human bias, given that it is usually wrong. My opponent mostly responded by agreeing historians were usually wrong, in that they look to the wrong places in history. Even if this were a valid way of looking at things (which I don't accept), he has failed to show any marginal accuracy to studying history.

I expanded this analysis to show that by not spending all that time learning historical facts that we literally don't need, we could instead be studying useful stuff. Pro at first claimed not to understand this, and then dropped any rebuttal as soon as I gave my explanation.

My opponent had the burden of proof in this debate. He had to show you one reason why studying history creates some benefit to make it worthwhile. All his benefits merely relate to the utility of historical data and historical evidence, but he has never shown the utility of historical study. Given my analysis that any benefits to studying history can also be realized without it, I think it's pretty clear how this debate falls.

The resolution is negated.

Return To Top | Posted:
2014-07-13 01:11:11
| Speak Round


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adminadmin
oooo... an error message. Now that's something I can fix.
Posted 2014-07-11 14:41:34
TophatdocTophatdoc
42 characters left supposedly but my last word is being cut off. It should read "great societies."

"preg_match_all(:( Compilation failed: missing terminating ] for character class at offset 9 in /home/edeb8/public_html/debate.php on line 86"
Posted 2014-07-11 03:48:20
TophatdocTophatdoc
Well I would say it is an anomaly but I can't since this is the first time I have used CX.
Posted 2014-07-10 00:14:35
adminadmin
I'll keep an eye out for it. I was using Chrome at the same time and could enter CX which is crazy, but until I can reproduce it I can't fix it.
Posted 2014-07-09 23:53:22
TophatdocTophatdoc
I tried several times to enter CX to be just sent back to this page. Google Chrome was the browser I was using.
Posted 2014-07-09 23:37:51
adminadmin
Did you try it several times? Also, which browser? There's no redirect on that page at all so the browser must have triggered it somehow.
Posted 2014-07-09 23:25:41
TophatdocTophatdoc
I tried clicking CX, I went to the CX page where it said loading, and then I was sent back to the debate page.
Posted 2014-07-09 23:23:43
adminadmin
Is there an error message? Can you see the button to enter cross examination? Is anything different compared to the last time you tried to enter CX?
Posted 2014-07-09 09:23:53
TophatdocTophatdoc
??? Strange, I can't enter cross-examination.
Posted 2014-07-09 09:20:17
adminadmin
Huh? Did you get a vote notification or something?
Posted 2014-07-07 20:23:20
nzlockienzlockie
What has happened here?
I came to vote on this debate only to see it has vanished!
Now I've found it and it looks like it's still live?
Posted 2014-07-07 19:07:05
TophatdocTophatdoc
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!......Too late
Posted 2014-07-06 23:35:48
adminadmin
I still consider them worth fixing though. Don't really want to force IE fanatics to switch browsers just to use edeb8 if I can.
Posted 2014-07-02 02:13:03
TophatdocTophatdoc
Bugs only happen when I use IE.
Posted 2014-07-02 01:51:54
adminadmin
As per usual, report bugs when you find them. :) I scoot around here on IE sometimes but it's not my main browser so I probably miss the most errors there.
Posted 2014-07-01 02:06:23
TophatdocTophatdoc
I will stick to Google Chrome or Firefox because IE doesn't work very well with this site.
Posted 2014-07-01 01:31:38
nzlockienzlockie
That's way more than 10 characters. Not that that explains the as bit far decision to cut the argument where it did.
Are non-displayed characters counted by the site, but not by the character counter?
Posted 2014-06-30 23:56:35
TophatdocTophatdoc
It said there were 10 characters left.
Posted 2014-06-30 23:16:44
TophatdocTophatdoc
Strange, the last line was cut off. The line said "I don't see the point my opponent is trying to make about studying other fields when they are being studied already."
Posted 2014-06-30 23:16:14
adminadmin
Think you got cut off again. You do realize it's only 4000 characters per round, right?
Posted 2014-06-30 23:15:30
TophatdocTophatdoc
Thanks.
Posted 2014-06-28 00:16:17
adminadmin
That's fine. I won't respond to an argument you haven't finished making, so you can do the other half of it across the other rounds.

Feel free to engage in CX BTW.
Posted 2014-06-27 13:36:43
TophatdocTophatdoc
My argument did get cut off, significantly. I can't finish it due to the character limit.
Posted 2014-06-27 08:52:41
The judging period on this debate is over

Previous Judgments

2014-07-13 07:59:26
zschmollJudge: zschmoll
Win awarded to: admin
Reasoning:
I think that the pro side really should have use the first mover advantage to present the definition of studying that would be much easier to defend. Essentially, con was able to draw the line to differentiate knowledge and study. With that line drawn, it was very hard to win the debate for the pro.
1 user rated this judgement as exceptional
0 comments on this judgement
2014-07-13 11:59:25
nzlockieJudge: nzlockie    TOP JUDGE
Win awarded to: admin
Reasoning:
OK, I actually changed my mind several times about this judgement. I feel like PRO lost this debate in the fact that he didn't contest or more accurately define the definition and scope of "studying". Making the distinction between Study and Knowledge was a great play by CON and for the rest of the debate as I examined PRO's examples, I was constantly asking myself - is this information obtainable exclusively through "study" or is it just based on "knowledge"? The fact is that the picture CON painted was that information needs to be looked at for years before it can be called Study. Anything less than that could be considered, "just looking it up". PRO should have attacked this definition hard. Because he didn't I was forced to buy CON's picture.
I didn't buy that PRO's entire case rested on one issue, or that he hadn't given reasoning or examples for the benefit of studying History. But I had to concede that he hadn't hammered those points home. The examples were few, obscure and questionable in their relevance.
On balance, I'm giving this to CON, because his argument was easy to follow and was more focused. I don't feel that the burden of proof was met as CON was able to throw so much doubt onto the definition.

Feedback:
PRO: I felt that as someone who seems invested in the topic, you allowed yourself to get too drawn into the debate. You should have established a practical criteria for when "looking up facts" transitions into "study".
I think the examples you chose were weaker than they could have been. History is far more important in certain areas than others. Social and Political were two that you sort of addressed, but where was Medical, Military or Legal? Far easier to defend than Engineering.
Your very specific reference to the study on Cyclic trends was far weaker in my opinion than spending that space arguing that the very data used to establish those trends can only be obtained through study.
I was waiting for you to elaborate on the concept that sheer data alone can only be useful when taken in context. To me, that was a weakness in CON's definition. You DID attack this, but not hard enough or effectively enough I feel.
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