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The Bible Teaches that Masturbation is Sinful

(PRO)
0 points
(CON)
WINNER!
11 points
xXCryptoXxxXCryptoXx (PRO)

Thank you for accepting this debate.



 I will be using the story of Onan to present my case, in
addition to Natural Law following the laws of morality the Judeo/Christian God has
set out.


First let us view the story of Onan.



Genesis 38: 8-10














8 



And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto
thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.



9 



And Onan knew that the seed should
not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife,
that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his
brother.



10 



And the thing which he did displeased
the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.



 



We can easily conclude two things here:

Onan spilled his “seed” (referring to semen) on the ground
and that God killed him because the sight of it displeased him.



Now what my opponent will clearly argue in response to this
is that God killed Onan for disobeying Jewish Law (Which was to bear a son for
his dead brother) rather than the spilling of semen outside of the intercourse
itself.



This is in fact, a common misconception
about God’s intent when he killed Onan.



You see, back during that time under
Jewish law a man who did not bear a child for his dead brother was punished by
public humiliation (See Deut. 25: 7-10)(1).



This means that God punished Onan for a
different reason, which we can conclude would be the spilling of semen onto the
ground. We know this because a huge part of the story is the emphasis on Onan’s
decision to perform coitus interruptus and
then God immediately slaying Onan afterwards.



Now this relates to masturbation in the
sense that they both involve the spilling of semen outside of intercourse, and
that they both render procreation impossible.



This means masturbation is directly
related to what Onan did.



 Now my burden of proof has already been
fulfilled in showing that the Bible teaches masturbation is sinful, but I’ll
take this even further and explain why it is sinful, and how that relates back
to what Onan did therefore showing parallel between the sins and proving they
are both of the same sin.


Masturbation, coitus interruptus(the action of Onan), and contraception(They
all involve the abuse of sexual pleasure and deem procreation impossible) is wrong
because it is a deliberate violation of the design that God built into the
human race. The Natural Law purpose of sex is procreation. The pleasure that
sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to
offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy,
respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond
creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children. Sexual pleasure can
become unnatural, and even spiritually harmful, when it is used in a way that
deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God's
gift of the sex act, along with pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by
deliberately frustrating its natural end: Procreation. (2)



Now that we have clarified that God
didn’t kill Onan for not conceiving a child for his brother, we can easily see
that God did kill him Onan for violating the natural law of sex.



This would actually mean that the abuse
of sexual pleasure in any form where procreation becomes impossible is actually
deemed as mortally sinful according to the Bible, for God killed Onan
for his violation of the natural law God has set out.



Masturbation, is one of these forms of
an abuse of sexual pleasure while excluding procreation, therefore it violates
the natural law God has set out.



Once a moral principle has been
established in the Bible, it need not be repeated again.



God built the act of sex to be between
man and woman, to strengthen the bond and intimacy between them, and to have a
natural means of procreation through their loving relationship. The Bible has
condemned any other use of the sexual act besides this, and has again and again
condemned the abuse of sexual pleasure (lust).



Therefore, under my
arguments masturbation has indeed been identified as immoral and sinful
according to the teachings and messages of the Bible.



 I look forward to your response.

(1)http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+25%3A7-10&version=ESV

(2)The Essential Catholic Survival Guide: Answers to Tough Questions About the Faith




Return To Top | Posted:
2013-11-07 09:34:57
| Speak Round
HeinekenHeineken (CON)

Pro established: "Onan spilled his “seed” (referring to semen) on the ground
and that God killed him because the sight of it displeased him
."
Rebuttal: Incorrect. It was not the "sight" of the act, but the act itself. The verse clearly states: "And the thing which he did displeased the LORD".
Why is this important to note? It is important because we need to know that it's not about the "perversion" of the act. The visual obscenity was entirely left out of the verse. My opponent created a Straw-man by manipulating the text.
It wasn't a sin of carnal obscenity that God found displeasing to look at. When God finds something visually obscene, the scripture describes the visual offense verbatim.
Same Book (Genesis), same Chapter (38), and one verse earlier (7), it clearly defines visual obscenity:
"And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him."
Onan's sin was trickery. He slept with his dead brother's wife to give the appearance of obedience, but deceitfully avoided impregnating her to avoid giving his dead brother an heir.
If everyone could see the sin, then the Elders could have dealt with it. Since Onan was secretive about it, only God could exact justice, which he did.
(P1) - The difference between outward sin (visible by all) and secret sin (trickery) is noted.
Conclusion: Onan was not punished for masturbation, but rather for disobedience and attempting to hide his sin.
=========================================================

Pro established: "You see, back during that time under Jewish law a man who did not bear a child for his dead brother was punished by public humiliation (See Deut. 25: 7-10)."
Rebuttal: That's true, but my opponent is missing the context. In any court you will always be charged with the greatest crime, not the smallest crime. The greatest crime committed by Onan was disobedience to Judah.
Consider his father ordered him in Genesis 38, Verse 8 - "And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother."
(P2) - The punishment for disobeying your parents is outlined in Deuteronomy 21:18-21.
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Conclusion: If we assumed that Judah and his family obeyed Jewish laws, then they would punish according to the highest crime, not the lowest. Additionally, we can clearly see that Onan was not brought before the elders, he was judged perfectly by God, the law-giver.
=========================================================

Pro assumes that Onan would have been punished according to Jewish law.
Rebuttal: I find this premise hard to believe, since Deuteronomy was the Law according to Moses, which wasn't given until 1407 BC. Genesis 38 is dated at 1898 BC, almost 600 years earlier. Onan was the son of Judah, who is Moses's Great Grand Uncle. You see, Moses came from the line of Levi. Levi is the Great Grandfather of Moses and the brother of Judah (The father of Onan, the accused masturbator).
Onan knew Abraham. [2] Moses wasn't born until 1525BC, which was 466 year later. It would be anoth 119 years before he gives the Law of Deuteronomy. [1]
(P3) - The crime committed by Onan occurred over half a century before the Law was given. How could Onan have possibly been punished under a law that wouldn't exist for another two generations?
Conclusion: Onan was not punished under the Law of Moses. He was punished for the contents of his heart, which I will prove with my next premise (P4).

=========================================================

Pro assumes that Masturbation is the crime.
Rebuttal: Yet the scripture tells us plainly what the true crime is.
Consider (p4) "cause" and "effect".
Genesis 38:9: And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; (<-----That's the motive.) and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.(<----- The motive is mentioned yet again in the same sentence.)
Hence the cause (c1) - "And Onan knew that the seed should not be his", so "he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother." (He did not want to provide an heir to his brother's estate.)
The effect (e1) - "And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also."

Conclusion: The cause (c1) was Onan's unwillingness to create a child that wasn't his own heir. So he deceitfully slept with his brother's wife to appear obedient to his father (Judah), but pulled out before ejaculating, so that his brother's estate would not have an heir.
The effect (e1) was his destruction by God. After all, everyone else thought he was obedient and actively trying to provide an heir for his dead brother. God, naturally, is the only one who could have punished him.
There is simply no evidence that Masturbation was the sin. Since there is no evidence that Masturbation is the sin, my opponent has no premise for Biblical objection to Masturbation.
=========================================================

Pro assumes that sex is only for procreation.
Rebuttal: This debate is about what the Bible teaches. This debate is not about what Catholic doctrine teaches.
The Bible DOES teach that sex can be used for pleasure.
(P5) Sex is a motivator for sin. Marriage is the God-approved outlet which allows a person to release their desires in a moral and healthy way. This is both for procreation and to keep sexual desire at bay. (1 Corinthians 7:2 -5)
2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

Also consider the Songs of Solomon:
Songs, Ch1:2 Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine. (Passionate Kissing)
Songs, Ch2: 3 As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons.I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste. (Reference to oral sex.)
Conclusion: The idea that sex is for child-bearing alone is a teaching of the Catholic Church, not the Bible. We are not concerned with Catholic Doctrine.
=========================================================

[1] Timeline of the old Testament - http://biblehub.com/timeline/
1Corinthians 7:2-5 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7&version=KJV
Genesis 38:7-10 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2038&version=KJV
[2] From Adam to Judah: The Significance of the Family Tree in Genesis, T. Desmond Alexander - http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/adam_alexander.pdf

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2021&version=KJV

[3] -From Adam to Moses - http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Generations%20Adam-Moses.htm


Return To Top | Posted:
2013-11-08 02:39:18
| Speak Round
xXCryptoXxxXCryptoXx (PRO)


What
Pro Must Do To Win This Debate



My opponent has provided an excellent response to my opening
arguments, and I do not believe I could possibly win this debate by continuing
down the route of arguments I decided to take. Seeing this true, I will drop
all current arguments, and will instead begin new arguments. Please note that this does not make me lose
any advantage whatsoever in winning this debate for I must only provide one
example of masturbation being taught as sinful in the Bible.



 



Throughout
the Bible (Including the Songs of Solomon my opponent mentioned), moral sex has
been continually portrayed as an intimate action between man and woman, to
bring the two people into “one flesh” and maintain the possibility of
procreation (See Gen. 1:28 (1)) while in a marital commitment.(2)



In addition,
the Bible has constantly maintained that anything outside of this would be
considered a sin of lust. Lust is the acting upon (whether through thought or
action) of an impure sexual desire.



So what
makes a sexual desire impure? We’ll analyze scripture that lust talks about the
sin of sex outside of marriage, and sex that is for the feeling of sex alone,
and not to bring the two people closer while still being open to the
possibility of procreation.



 



Sex outside
of marriage is condemned in Hebrews 13:4:



“Let
marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for
God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.”
(3)



Notice the
emphasis on marriage, and the emphasis that without marriage any sexual act is
immoral.



Also in Corinthians
6:9-11:



"Know
you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not
deceived, neither fornicators,
nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with
mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God"
(4)



 



We know that
sex is also meant to bring two people together into one flesh, bring them into
an intimate, loving relationship. We know this through the Song of Solomon,
which put much emphasis on the intimacy of the sexual act, and not nearly as
much emphasis on procreation itself.(5)



Lastly we
know that a married couple should be open to procreation through Gen. 1:28
where God tells Adam and Eve (symbolized to simply mean man and woman) that
they should be fruitful and multiply.



 



Since it has
been established in the Bible that these are the prerequisites to moral sex,
then we can safely conclude that the impurity and sexual immorality all too
often referred to in the Bible applies to anything that does not follow these
terms.



 



Masturbation
is an act that directly glorifies the pleasure of sex itself, seeing that it is
the manual stimulation of one’s sexual organs. Masturbation takes the intimacy
out of the act of sex, which is what sexual pleasure is geared toward, and
completely takes out any openness to procreation.



For
masturbation to be sinful, only one of the three terms of moral sex has to be
broken.



Sexual
intimacy is a gift from God to create the kind of love God has for us. It is to
unite the two humans in a way that God is united with his Son, the Holy Spirit,
and how God is united with us. Masturbation takes out the mutual self giving
and sexual intimacy, while rendering procreation impossible, therefore
contradicting the very reason God created the act of sex in the first place.



“The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside
of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose. For here sexual pleasure is
sought outside of the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order
and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in
the context of true love is achieved."
(7)



Overall,
masturbation is a sin against the nature of sex. Being a sin against nature, it
is a sin against the author of nature who would be none other than God. This is
because, once again, masturbation is an act that defeats the purpose of sex
while abusing the blessing of pleasure into an act of selfishness.



“Masturbation
isolates us from the natural order of sexuality, which is paired, not solo. It
also unnaturally focuses us on ourselves, turning the sexual act inward rather
than outward. In doing this, it perverts sex and distorts its purpose. It also
makes two idols (which is against the First Commandment, of course): we idolize
ourselves by it, and we idolize pleasure for its own sake -- as opposed to
pleasure as a gift & as a product of holy union with the human object of
our love. In pleasuring ourselves, we seize this gift out of impatience and false
entitlement, therefore devaluing the gift itself.”
(6)



 



(1)http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1%3A28



(2)http://www.bibleanswershow.com/2013/03/does-bible-teach-that-sex-is-only-for.html



(3)http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+13%3A4&version=NIV



(4)http://www.bible.ca/s-premarital-sex.htm



(5)http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CFYQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.horizoncc.com%2Fhorizonfiles%2Fpdf%2Fsolomon.pdf&ei=lMZ-UqKjO8ekrQGqj4CgCw&usg=AFQjCNHHSuRR9EwmKA-N_6TCTd-4O__7KQ&bvm=bv.56146854,d.aWM&cad=rja



(6)http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=429208&page=1



(7)http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm






Return To Top | Posted:
2013-11-10 06:47:41
| Speak Round
HeinekenHeineken (CON)

I'd like to thank my opponent for fighting on.
My opponent has conceded his first round arguments completely and endeavored to create an entirely new set of arguments. I have no objections, as long as the burden is consistent.

==========
The burden, I may remind you, is that "the Bible Teaches that Masturbation is Sinful."
The burden is NOT:
1.> Catholic Doctrine teaches that Masturbation is Sinful.
2.> The Bible infers that Masturbation might be sinful.
3.> It could be argued that Masturbation might be performed in a sinful manner and should be avoided, just in case.

Again, the burden is: "The Bible Teaches that Masturbation is Sinful."

==========
(P1) - The Bible never mentions masturbation. Ever. The Bible discussed Bestiality [1], Homosexuality [2], having Lustfull thoughts [3], sex before marriage [4], extra-marital affairs [5], Virginity within a Marriage, [6], oral sex [7], rape and incest [8], sex for procreation [9], sex for continuation of a household of a deceased brother [10], sex between angels and people [11], and sex between consenting married adults for the sake of mutual release of sexual desire [12], but never touches the topic of self-gratification.
Conclusion: My opponent cannot prove his burden, he can only suggest it's possibility. As I have stated in the previous round, the burden is lost. My opponent can cite Catholic interpretation (committing an "appeal to authority" logical fallacy), but he cannot cite a single verse where Masturbation is forbidden. (<----The Burden)

==========

Pro established "that moral sex has been continually portrayed as an intimate action between man and woman, to bring the two people into “one flesh” and maintain the possibility of procreation."


Rebuttal: Masturbation is not sex. Self gratification does not count as intercourse, as most high school teenagers will testify. The design for moral sexual intercourse does not apply to masturbation.
Additionally, I challenge my opponent to defy the following premise (formed question):
Is Masturbation to sexually arousing images of your spouse a sin?
If a man (let's say a Soldier, serving at war) is faced with sexual advances of a female third-country national or even a fellow soldier, would it be sinful for him to release the pent up sexual desire through masturbation and fantasy about his wife, rather than acting on his lust and committing adultery?
Would masturbation to sexual fantasy about your wife break any of the traditional laws of scripture?
(P2) - In order for Masturbation to be sinful, it must be a reaction to sinful lust being gratified in fantasy. If the fantasy is about your wife or husband, then the fantasy is not sinful. The Bible teaches a man to rejoice in the wife of his youth. The image of her beauty and sensuality is to be celebrated and enjoyed.
Consider Proverbs 5:18 -
18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.
19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.
20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?

Conclusion: Having lustful thoughts about your wife is encouraged as healthy, therefor masturbation coupled with this healthy fantasy could not possibly be sinful or immoral, especially since the Bible is completely SILENT on the topic of masturbation.

==========

The sources used by my opponent are invalid. To support his premise that masturbation is sinful, my opponent cited a forum response by a Catholic woman named "Elizabeth502" [13].
Additionally, my opponent cited a Canadian fringe theology webpage as an authority. It took me almost an hour to dig up the author of the page. Apparently Billy David Duncan was a Preacher at a small Church in some remote Canadian province in 2006. This web service my opponent cited was Mr. Duncan's desperate attempt to sell his radically uninteresting commentaries on the topic of "Lunar Sabbaths".

Additionally, the author my opponent cited in his second source is a proxy. The Bible Answer show received it's material from Joe Beam, who is a Christian Sex and Marriage counselor. This same source is also quoted as saying:

"Actually, there is no reference to masturbation anywhere in the Bible that I can find. So when you ask what God thinks about masturbation, you have to rely on Biblical principles rather than a specific Biblical statement."
Followed by:
"From my viewpoint, masturbation isn’t wrong unless it is focused on a person you don’t have a right to. A married couple, for example, could masturbate together and there would be no sin." [15]


Conclusion: The burden is unsupportable. My opponent cannot prove that the Bible teaches Masturbation as a sinful act. Since we are not concerned with Catholic doctrine or the opinions people hold about Masturbation and it's spiritual cost, but rather with the Bible, I reiterate the impossibility for my opponent's success in carrying the burden.

I look forward to the next round of discussion.

 

==========

[1] Exodus 22:19 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+22&version=KJV
[2] Leviticus 18:22 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+18&version=KJV
[3] Matthew 5:28 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5&version=KJV
[4] 1 Corinthian 7:9 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7&version=KJV
[5] Hebrews 13:4 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+13&version=KJV
[6] Deuteronomy 20:7 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+20&version=KJV
[7] - Songs of Solomon 2:3 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Song+of+Solomon+2&version=KJV
[8] - 2 Samuel 13:12 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Samuel+13&version=KJV
[9] Genesis 1:28 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=KJV
[10] Deuteronomy 25:7 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+25&version=KJV
[11] Genesis 6:4 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206&version=KJV
[12] 1 Corinthian 7:2 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7&version=KJV
[13] Elizabeth502' Profile Page - http://forums.catholic.com/member.php?s=dfa398d38707f77b9a5ac852666d901f&u=115526
[14] The Bible.ca amateur webpage - http://www.bible.ca/bible.htm
[15] JoeBeam.com - http://joebeam.com/blog/mom-caught-son-masturbatinghow-does-dad-deal-with-this/#.UoDv-BQo6ig


Return To Top | Posted:
2013-11-11 02:21:02
| Speak Round
xXCryptoXxxXCryptoXx (PRO)


Thank you for your response.

Burden Fallacy


My opponent establishes a burden fallacy by desperately arguing that since the Bible doesn't flat out say that masturbation is sinful, that masturbation is therefore not sinful. My opponent attempts to group my arguments that masturbation is sinful as a denominational "opinion" of the Catholic Church, that my arguments only infer that masturbation might be sinful, and that there is no way to absolutely show that masturbation is sinful therefore not allowing me to fulfill my burden of proof.

None of these could be further from the truth. There is no possible way the Bible could establish every single possible sin. Therefore we can establish that the BIble must teach what is good, and infer that anything outside of this good is sinful. This is done through the generalization of sins. For example, the Bible must only establish that stealing is wrong in order for us to understand that any type of stealing of any item is also wrong. In the same, the BIble establishes the code to healthy, moral sex (Sex within marriage, the giving of the self to one's partner, ect.) and the code to human sexuality (Chastity, heterosexual union, ect.) for us to know that anything outside of this code is sinful. (3)With the help of these laws and through the logic of natural law, we can conclude that masturbation is indeed sinful. My opponent commits the fallacy that I must give a BIble verse directly saying that masturbation is sinful in order to win this debate. This is where my opponent's seeming desperation to dodge my arguments starts to seep in. The debate resolution isn't the Bible states that masturbation is sinful; The resolution is the Bible teaches masturbation is sinful.

Does Masturbation Apply to the Laws of Moral Sex?
The answer is yes. Masturbation, which involves the sexual organs and the stimulation of the sexual organs directly embodies many of the requisites of sex, and directly applies to human sexuality and the concept of chastity. My opponent attempts to dodge my arguments by saying that masturbation is not sex and therefore does not apply, but this ignores my arguments on natural law completely and that masturbation directly applies to the concept of sex.

The fact is, masturbation is so outside the means of of moral sex, and embodies the concept of lust to such an extent it actually distorts and confuses sex to the point where it is difficult to make the connections of masturbation to moral sex.  We do know that masturbation is one person stimulating their own sexual organs, therefore taking the intimacy out of sex breaking one of the prerequisites to moral sex. We know that masturbation is the absolute opposite to the complete self giving of moral sex and actual embodies selfishness and praise of the human body. We know that masturbation completely and utterly focuses on the feeling of sexual stimulation itself, and nothing else making it an act of lust. Lastly we know that with masturbation all means of possible openness to procreation are cut off, breaking the natural of sex and its link to procreation.

Breaking all of these codes truly distorts moral sex and puts masturbation so outside the Biblical means of moral sex that it need not even be mentioned, it is so obviously sinful breaking all of these laws of moral sex.

Exceptions Justifying Masturbation?

My opponent brings up two possible exceptions perhaps justifying the act of masturbation. I will show why neither of these exceptions are moral.

Is Masturbation to sexually arousing images of your spouse a sin?
If a man (let's say a Soldier, serving at war) is faced with sexual  advances of a female third-country national or even a fellow soldier,  would it be sinful for him to release the pent up sexual desire through  masturbation and fantasy about his wife, rather than acting on his lust  and committing adultery?


This is a fallacy. You assume that if the soldier does not masturbate he is going to commit an act of lust or adultery. No, there are no excuses for acting upon either forms of lust, and using masturbation as a way to release pent up sexual desire is just as bad as the other two options. Rather, the soldier must pray to God to keep him strong in his will and to calm his sexual desires. Masturbation still breaks all the moral codes of sex. (2)

Would masturbation to sexual fantasy about your wife break any of the traditional laws of scripture?

In order for Masturbation to be sinful, it must be a reaction to  sinful lust being gratified in fantasy. If the fantasy is about your  wife or husband, then the fantasy is not sinful. The Bible teaches a man  to rejoice in the wife of his youth. The image of her beauty and  sensuality is to be celebrated and enjoyed.


This is also false. Masturbation isn't sinful because of the lustful thoughts accompanied with it, rather the thoughts of lust are another sin in its own. (1)
In addition, my opponent distorts the meaning of the passage he presented. He uses the passage to infer that a man can lust in thought if its to his wife without sin. This is false. The Bible condemns lust in general with no exception. (4) Rather, this passage talks about how one must stay in faithful commitment to one's spouse, and give one's self to them in fullness and appreciation. In no way does the passage embody lust at all.

Source War

My opponent commits quite a bit of hypocrisy here. First I will defend my sources then attack his own. All sources I presented were completely validated. I sourced all ideas, quotes, and argument inspiration in addition to Bible verses. I took certain arguments from certain sources and presented them here. It does not matter that certain ideas in certain sources may have gone against my own arguments. In fact, that doesn't deteriorate my arguments at all, for until my arguments are properly rebutted they still stand. All sources I used were valid and nessecary.

My opponent however has unnecessarily sourced a plethora of things just to get more sources in order to properly compete with me. For example, my opponent sourced twelve types of sex mentioned in the Bible and sourced them all. The problem is is that all of that was completely unnecessary and was utterly irrelevant to the debate, therefore we can dismiss all twelve sources he presented. Another unnecessary source was the source of a profile page from someone whom I quoted last round. There is no need for that, and it you have nothing to put against me that I sourced a quote from someone on an online forum. They presented the view on the immorality of masturbation well so I quoted them. My opponent's other two sources were appropriate for the debate.

I await your response.


(1)http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-28.htm
(2)http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+10%3A13
(3)http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Peter-2-11/
(4)http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6%3A18&version=ESV



Return To Top | Posted:
2013-11-18 11:14:26
| Speak Round
HeinekenHeineken (CON)

Pro claimed that I am “desperately” arguing “since the Bible doesn't flat out say that masturbation is sinful, that masturbation is therefore not sinful. “
Rebuttal: Calling my arguments “desperate” is like claiming DNA evidence in a murder trial is “desperate”. In the absence of any scripture on the topic of masturbation, I’d call my argument central, solid and sound.
(P1) – Masturbation is not a footnote in human sexuality. It’s radically more common than homosexuality, pedophilia, bestiality, rape or incest.
I would hope that if masturbation truly is a sin, the Bible would be more proactive in rooting out its practice, considering that 92% of men and 64% of women engage in the practice [1]. As far as sin is concerned, that would be an epidemic.
The same study reveals that only 37% of males and 16% of females have engaged in homosexual acts, yet the Bible condemns this act with excessive fervor. If sexual purity is the goal, and if masturbation violates this purity, then scripture commits the most flagrantly irresponsible omission on sexual morality, period. In the end, it equally condemns my opponent in his inability to prove his burden.
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Pro then objects to my premise that masturbatory sin is a denominational opinion of the Catholic Church.
Rebuttal: I absolutely and confidently reject that denominational doctrine is evidence for PRO’s burden. We are concerned with what the Bible teaches. The Catechism is not the Bible, yet my opponent quotes the 2nd edition Catechism verbatim. (Round 2, source 7)
Consider:
- The Catholic Catechism (2n edition), section 2352 [2] teaches that masturbation is a sin. [2]
- The Catechism bases it’s reasoning on Section 9 of the Persona Humana. [3]
- The Persona Humana is a Papal declaration from 1975.
- The 1975 Persona Humana, Section 9 is based on another Papal decree by Cf. Leo IX in his letter entitled:” Ad splendidum nitentis”, which was written in 1054 AD. [4]
- The Letter “Ad splendidum nitentis” is a Papal decree on sexual purity of the Apostles, which is based on the “Liber Gomorhianus”. [5]
- The “Liber Gomorhianus” (a.k.a The Book of Gomorrah) was written by Saint Peter Damien in 1051 in an attempt to purge homosexual abuse of young boys from the Clergy. In an attempt to eliminate sexual deviancy from the ranks of the Church, he condemned any act that might induce sinful fantasy, holding the Clergy to the highest standards of sexual purity, a.k.a. abstinence.
Conclusion: Catholic abolition of masturbation is not rooted in scripture, it’s rooted in the political reformation of the Priesthood, a problem distinct to a single Denomination and recognized only by Catholics. As demonstrated, not even the Catholics have a Biblical source for their condemnation of masturbation. Instead, they rely on the belief that the Pope is supernaturally gifted with infallibility on topics of faith. I dare say that’s a far cry from establishing that the bible teaches masturbation as a sin.
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Pro established that there is no possible way the Bible could establish every single possible sin.
Rebuttal: What a flagrant concession. My opponent is tasked with the burden of establishing that “The Bible teaches that masturbation is sinful”, yet he conceded that the Bible doesn’t mention the sin, and thus he relies on inferences, guided by Catholic tradition, which was created to root out pedophilia amongst the Priesthood.
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Pro claims: We can establish that the Bible must teach what is good, and infer that anything outside of this good is sinful.
Rebuttal: The Bible would disagree. The Bible teaches that God alone is good and that we cannot attain goodness. In fact, when we try to be good, the Bible refers to the act as “dirty rags”. Good acts are impossible to achieve. Hence, the Bible doesn’t teach us what is good, the Bible teaches what is bad and masturbation didn’t make the list.
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My opponent then establishes that “stealing” is a sin and any other form thereof is also a sin by proxy. He therefore summarizes that since sex outside of marriage is a sin and therefor masturbation must be covered by proxy.
Rebuttal: For starters, masturbation is not sex. Masturbation is self-gratification in the absence of sex. It literally stands apart from sexual intercourse.
Additionally, my opponent argues that it’s sinfulness is inferred, yet the scripture didn’t infer homosexuality as a sin, it mentions it outright. It didn’t infer bestiality as a sin, it mentions it outright. It didn’t infer incest as a sin, it mentions it outright. Yet all of these sins are comparatively rare. Why would the Bible skip over the one sin that almost guaranteed to affect every male of pubescent age?
Conclusion: If we are to utilize inference, there is more evidence pointing toward a position of indifference on the topic, than there is evidence pointing at sin.
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Pro establishes that I ignored his “arguments on natural law completely and that masturbation directly applies to the concept of sex. “
Rebuttal: Masturbation is not sex. The dictionary defines masturbation as the erotic stimulation especially of one's own genital organs commonly resulting in orgasm and achieved by manual or other bodily contact exclusive of sexual intercourse, by instrumental manipulation, occasionally by sexual fantasies, or by various combinations of these agencies. [6]
Conclusion: Masturbation is literally defined as an act apart from sex and it’s also not necessary to have sexual fantasy involved, in order to masturbate.
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Pro argued that masturbation to the fantasy of a spouse is a fallacy, because it presumes that the spouse will endeavor to sin by seeking extramarital sex if he doesn’t masturbate.
Rebuttal: Pro clearly is seeking to dodge the burden. I'm not so much concerned with the moral benefit of masturbating. I want the PRO to answer the question: Is it sinful to masturbate to the fantasy of your wife in her absence?
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Pro argued that the Bible condemns lust in general with no exception.
Rebuttal: Absolutely incorrect. In scripture the word “lust” is “epithumeo” which carries no function or meaning of sexual desire. It simply means “strong desire”, but it has no context. In fact, the same word used to describe sinful sexual desire is also used by Christ to describe his desire to share a pass-over meal in Luke 22:15. [7]
So when the scripture uses the word "lust", it needs context.

The context of “a strong desire” (epithumeo) for your spouse is absolutely not sinful and supported by a large array of scripture that I’ve already cited (and my opponent misunderstood).
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Concerning the source war accusation, I will not stoop into a character attack. I cited the sources I used, and whether or not the arguments they are used in appeal to the voter is not for my opponent to say. It seems a little like vote pandering to me, which PRO started in the comment section. Let’s refrain from that please.
Concerning the legitimacy of PRO's sources, I pointed out my view on them and the voter will surely do their due research and verify my accusations of PRO citing forum posts and religious hacks.
--------

[1] “Alfred Kinsey's 1948 and 1953 Studies”, The Kinsey Institute, http://www.indiana.edu/~kinsey/research/ak-data.html#masturbation
[2] Catechism - http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm
[3] Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith December 29, 1975- http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_df75se.htm -
[4] Ad splendidum nitentis - http://catho.org/9.php?d=bxu#bmc
[5] The Book of Gomorrah - http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1070364/Liber-Gomorrhianus
[6] Dictionary Definition of Masturbation - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/masturbation
[7] Lust - http://www.the-generous-husband.com/2012/03/09/lust-i-want-you/




Return To Top | Posted:
2013-11-19 05:12:01
| Speak Round


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adminadmin
See here: http://www.edeb8.com/forum/EDEB8.com+Site/63
Posted 2013-11-14 12:05:17
adminadmin
The time stamp is automatically generated by mysql based on the server time. User times would be too easy to forge, plus to let mysql set it by default is easier. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what just happened.
Posted 2013-11-14 11:59:42
adminadmin
OK, who can do maths - how many seconds are there in 3 days? 259,200 right?
Posted 2013-11-14 11:57:48
HeinekenHeineken
No you gave him 6 hours extra for a bug that caused down time.
Posted 2013-11-14 11:57:01
HeinekenHeineken
Do you think the comment rounds use local time? Like if I post at 9:00 AM EST, the time stamp is entered as 9:00AM NZT instead...and so we loose half a day because the post format thinks everyone is on NZT?
Posted 2013-11-14 11:56:26
adminadmin
So the difference between your dates is +3 days, 06:01:01. Can I just get someone who would know to confirm that these dates are correct? Because if so, then:

1) xXCryptoXx had LONGER to post than he should have, and
2) My countdown timer is sometimes inaccurate
Posted 2013-11-14 11:56:14
HeinekenHeineken
Wow...you're right. He had 3 days and 6 hours. You added 6 hours as a bug bonus...so...yea..adds up. He ran out. Weird.
Posted 2013-11-14 11:54:40
HeinekenHeineken
Damn dude.....you're like the rainman of php...
Posted 2013-11-14 11:52:38
adminadmin
Time stamps added :)
Posted 2013-11-14 11:45:16
HeinekenHeineken
Is there a way to add time stamps to the debate round? That way you could see when the debate started, when the rounds posted...etc...it would give you an exact time.
Posted 2013-11-14 11:38:50
HeinekenHeineken
When I checked early this morning at about 6:00 AM EST, he still had over 1 day left. That much I guarantee.
The secret topic debate I had with Night of the Living cat also ended at least half a day early. At least. I know that's a huge bug and pretty annoying, but I wouldn't lie about it.
Posted 2013-11-14 11:37:39
HeinekenHeineken
He's right. This morning he had 20 hours left. Same thing happened with my other debate, but my opponent was apathetic, so we let it slide. It happens after the 20 hour mark.....
He has at least 12 hours left.
Posted 2013-11-14 11:33:32
adminadmin
The 20-hour-mark theory can't possibly be true because here I have a debate at the 16 hour mark: http://www.edeb8.com/debate/People+watch+TV+for+psychological+reasons+as+opposed+to+simple+laziness./

When the round started did it accurately say you had 2 days, 23 hours to post?
Posted 2013-11-14 11:29:23
HeinekenHeineken
He's right. This morning he had 20 hours left. Same thing happened with my other debate, but my opponent was apathetic, so we let it slide. It happens after the 20 hour mark.....
He has at least 12 hours left.
Posted 2013-11-14 11:27:07
adminadmin
As I wrote in a message, I don't think it did. Heineken, do you remember exactly when you posted your most recent argument, to the hour?
Posted 2013-11-14 10:47:29
xXCryptoXxxXCryptoXx
What the hell, my time ran out early.
Posted 2013-11-14 08:44:26
HeinekenHeineken
If you find it silly, that's fine. I find it practical and honest to hyperlink every source I invoke. Since the burden is about the Bible, I also find it relevant that my sources are.....the Bible.
:-)
Posted 2013-11-11 22:16:09
adminadmin
Ask and ye shall receive (most of the time:( 6 hours of extra time has been added. I think that's (approx.) how long it took me to solve the issue.
Posted 2013-11-11 21:25:59
xXCryptoXxxXCryptoXx
Extra time would be nice.
Posted 2013-11-11 12:07:00
xXCryptoXxxXCryptoXx
Lol, this source war is actually quite comical. Let's be honest we both knew I B.S'd my sources last round, but man you really took it to Heaven and back with your 12 sources you cited quoting all the types of sex in the Bible, near entirely irrelevant to the debate at hand LOL.

Please note I'm not trying to be offensive in anyway, but you have to admit it's pretty silly.

Posted 2013-11-11 11:58:01
HeinekenHeineken
I'm fine adding the extra time. It's only fair. Thanks for the super-fast response. Another reason why this is fast becoming better than DDO.
Posted 2013-11-11 10:56:45
adminadmin
Sorry about the errors in this debate earlier - it cut off PRO's stuff halfway through a MS Word comment, which caused the browser to think everything after that (incl. con's argument) was a comment too. This is why my Word fixes were so important lol.

If you both agree I can add some extra time to pro to compensate.
Posted 2013-11-11 10:09:43
The judging period on this debate is over

Previous Judgments

2013-11-19 23:48:28
adminJudge: admin    TOP JUDGE
Win awarded to: Heineken
Reasoning:
I think pro's drop in round one was a slight tactical mistake. It allowed con to take a lot of initiative early and added some measure of authority to their case. Pro established the key issue as being whether masturbation was generally contrary to the purpose of sex as outlined in the Bible. I felt that this was a decent line to run, and I didn't accept con's contention that the Bible had to literally say "x is sinful" for it to teach the same. Con's other key contention, however, was much stronger. He told us that masturbation was not sex. This exploited a rather big inconsistency in pro's case, where he was at once claiming masturbation was a massive perversion/distortion of sex, and exactly analogous to all the biblical laws concerning sex. This narrative inconsistency was never resolved, and thus I feel obliged to award con the win.

With regards to the other, non-critical arguments: I did accept that the quality of con's sources was superior, but the difference was honestly so marginal I didn't bother to weight it. I felt that pro dealt with con's two counterexamples very neatly, and besides that they weren't so strong to begin with as they were premised on several aspects of pro's narrative. I felt like too much space was wasted on these points and not enough dealing with the substantive issues of the debate.

Feedback:
For pro: A better approach when faced with really fantastic arguments is normally to slowly divert attention from those points that won't win you the debate, and refocus the debate on those things that will. As the affirmative in a case like this, bear in mind that you only need one of your arguments standing to win on BOP. If you're lucky, con might hammer on about your earlier, weaker material while ignoring your newer, stronger stuff. Worst case scenario, you continue the debate with just your stronger stuff. Either way you don't have anything to lose, and much to gain.

If there's one thing I'd say you have to work on, it's making sure you have a very clear, very consistent line that you're running throughout. If you can sum up your argument into a little catchphrase that you keep coming back to, then all the better. It helped you a lot that your case wasn't very conciliatory and that you ran a tough line where most debaters would have picked a soft one. What didn't help was that this narrative got confused a few times.

What you did well was to structure your case carefully based on a clear holistic understanding of where the debate was at and what judges will be looking for. I enjoyed reading your rounds.

For con: It's generally a very weak argument to try to tell the other team what their burden should be. You can safely assume that even a judge that knows nothing about debating can see when a side is strawmanning. It didn't help in this round that your case wasn't even true (if pro couldn't meet his burden under your interpretation, your case is a tautology and pro wins by default), and that this was really, painfully obvious. Against a weaker opponent I'd have called you out for noob-swiping.

I'd definitely work on having a substantive case. While a straight neg happened to work it was much too directly correlated to pro's case, and if pro had spun a better narrative it would have backfired hard. Condensing pro's case to a few thematic issues and rebutting them from several angles can make it seem like you have much more of a case than you actually do.

The actual content of those rebuttals, however, was really top caliber. I'd be very happy with that.
2 users rated this judgement as constructive
0 comments on this judgement
2013-11-20 08:57:51
PinkieJudge: Pinkie    TOP JUDGE
Win awarded to: Heineken
Reasoning:
I find Pro’s drop in argument was slightly irritating, he conceded the points that Con brought out for the beginning of the debate, although you should realize this made no difference in the decider of the round.

Con's key contention, was much stronger then Pro’s contentions. He told us that masturbation was not sex. This showed us a discrepancy in Pro's case, where he was at once claiming masturbation was a distortion of sex, and agrees to all the Biblical laws about sex.

I voted Con because I thought all his arguments were of more value than Pro’s.


Feedback:
I am still new to debate myself, but all I have to say is keep up the good work to both sides.
2 users rated this judgement as good
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0 comments on this judgement
2013-11-26 23:45:13
draftermanJudge: drafterman
Win awarded to: Heineken
Reasoning:
I felt the primary issues in this debate where: A) whether masturbation fell under some broad category of sinful behavior as outlined by the Bible; B) and whether notable lack of explicit mention, in light of its prevalence, should be a factor in determining A. While I agree (and it was not disputed) that the Bible cannot mention every explicit sin, Con did a convincing job of arguing why, at the very least, masturbation should have been mentioned specifically. While the Bible cannot mention every sin (as argued by Pro) it nevertheless dabbles in mentioning specific sins (as shown by Con) and it seems incongruous to omit masturbation, if it is indeed a sin (as also shown by Con).

As far as its application to a more general form of immoral behavior, I found this a bit hard to follow, admittedly. Pro's presentation seemed more stream of consciousness and not well constructed whereas Con's arguments were always on point and backed up. The win goes to Con since Con simply has to cause enough doubt in Pro's arguments, which he did.

Feedback:
1. Don't change arguments. The second "half" of your debate suffered because it seemed as if you were improvising. If you feel you are so thoroughly defeated at the end of R1, then just concede the whole debate, and revisit the subject when you are better prepared.

2. Remember, as Pro you have a burden above that of Con's. All Con really has to do is poke holes in your argument. While they can do this by proving the negation of the resolution, this isn't necessary. You, however, have a resolution to prove, meaning you cannot be satisfied merely calling into question Con's points.
1 user rated this judgement as exceptional
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