Edeb8 statement on DDO's new site conduct policy

I just thought I'd put my thoughts down here in relation to this: http://www.debate.org/forums/debate.org/topic/40226/

This is the equivalent edeb8 term of service:
...the following content is strongly prohibited on EDEB8.com: ...Content that may be strongly intimidating, legally defamatory and/or demonstrates bullying-type behavior

In my view, it's not personal attacks that are the problem, especially not in the overly-broad and vague way ddo defines them. Instead, it's bullying that's the problem. Not all personal attacks are bullying, and not all bullying is a personal attack. I think it's ridiculous ddo has no anti-bullying policy but an extended personal attack policy.

Wikipedia defines bullying like this: "Bullying is the use of force, threat, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or aggressively impose domination over others."

Note there are two parts to this. Bullying online is where you use a threat or coercion to attack others. It's not merely any threat or coercion as ddo believes. On edeb8, if the threat is strong enough, or a member is being defamed, those things are dealt with. If there's even an implied an intention to control another member, that gets dealt with. But more than that is simply not helpful. For example, I made a post once criticizing the lack of moderation on ddo. The idea that I could be banned over that (as a "personal attack" against the moderators) frankly seems kind of Orwellian. The post was actually really constructive.

Having said that, other forms of ad hom attack may still not be a very nice thing to do on the forum. In the past on this forum, I've kind of been trying to tone conversations down whenever I felt that something was about to get personal. I don't know if I've erred too much on the side of caution, because this kind of attack has never been a problem on edeb8. But I would never ban a member over stuff like that. In fact, I personally welcome any and all criticism.

Feel free to comment your thoughts.

admin: NOTE: I did not click the link you posted because I have no intention of giving [censored] any money or any site traffic.

I find the problems at [censored] tend to relate more to harassment than bullying. People will follow someone else to a different thread or make an entire thread about someone over at [censored] to instigate conflict. In some cases, they will PM each other and to engage in more insults and personal attacks(I haven't done this but have read about it). I am not sure if this is bullying because that suggests that threats and coercion are taking place.

I will say the ugliest encounters I had were on the forums or in the opinions sections of [censored]. I prefer to term it, "drive-by intellectualism." People can continuously keep posting without offering any words of intelligence or any facts. As I told one fellow [censored] one time, I prefer debates and discussion that take place in the real world to any sort of typed out or written out discussion. The people who thrive in this environment are trolls and bloody-minded zealots who can sit calmly behind their computer and spout inflammatory language. The Internet emboldens some of the most disgusting characteristics of mankind. The forums and opinions sections will always be the nastiest places on the website because anything can be said without any significant consequences(except banning but that is not significant in my opinion).

I agree with Bill Burr, 87% of people on the Internet are animals(I think he meant the people who type). The Internet is supposed to be a far more civil place since we can control what sites we frequent and whom we wish to interact with. The idea that people have to reply to everything shows a lack of self-control.

admin: What would you do if I posted a long well documented history of hypocrisy, insult, and dishonesty from a poster in its own thread? Would you consider that bullying?

ADreamOfLiberty: Nothing, supposing that it's true and you don't bash them about it. I wouldn't consider merely posting documentation of past behavior once bullying.

I will say though that to me, edeb8 is a clean slate. Whatever happened on another site is none of my business. If a user doesn't want personal/private details from another site or real-life sources published, for example, I have to respect that. Don't want any privacy things to become an issue here.

Removed some accidental reposts

admin: Would you consider posts in public forums private details?

ADreamOfLiberty: If a person has chosen to make details public, they are no longer private. Basically 99% of privacy law is "be reasonable", and this site is the same.

admin: Good, that is ultimately what drove me from DDO. A particular user was abusive to me, refused to support his assertions about something I care about; and repeatedly attempted to orchestrate my ban. I did not ask for moderator intervention; I simply documented his behavior and posted the compilation as evidence that he was a hypocrite and should not be trusted.

That was deleted even though everything I documented was allowed to happen in the first place. I told the moderator I would leave if things were left like that, and they told me they would direct this person to debate me on the issue or publicly announce they had no position on it. 21 days later, it didn't happen and the moderator reneged.

A basic minimum of moderator consistency would be allowing that if something (like insults) are allowed on the site, then someone can point out that someone else does nothing but insult.

ADreamOfLiberty: Couldn't agree more with that.

admin: LarzTehAdmin is a [insert insult here]!!!!1one

I agree with EDB8's terms. Bullying not helpful and the rules against bullying here makes sense, but that does not mean criticism is bullying. I like how you made a distinction between those two.

JDSFDSFfsa: I support Lar's statement. jh1234IEDB8 is just being a huge idiot!!!1

OK, stop fighting everyone.

admin: I'm not fighting! I'm just telling y'all what we can plainly see.

Pinkie: Now you're arguing with me

admin: No.

Pinkie: Now you're contradicting me

admin: I am just stating my opinion. That's what edeb8 is for... Right?

Pinkie: edeb8 is for formal debating. Not random forum feuds.

admin: I'm not being hostile, therefore I am not feuding.

admin: I'm not being hostile, therefore I am not feuding.